Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V16_5/V16NO579.TXT

Internet Message Format | 1993-07-13 | 27KB

Date: Mon, 17 May 93 05:06:49
From: Space Digest maintainer <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Digest V16 #579
To: Space Digest Readers
Precedence: bulk


Space Digest                Mon, 17 May 93       Volume 16 : Issue 579

Today's Topics:
                     Billboards in space (2 msgs)
         Math?? (Was US govt & Technolgy Investment (2 msgs)
                       Shuttle and Pennicillin
                 Space Marketing -- Boycott (2 msgs)
            Space Marketing would be wonderfull. (9 msgs)
                     STS-57 inclination? (2 msgs)
                 Visas for astronauts after an abort
    Why we like DC-X (was Re: Shuttle 0-Defects & Bizarre? DC-X?)

    Welcome to the Space Digest!!  Please send your messages to
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 May 93 18:07:45 GMT
From: "Theodore F. Vaida ][" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Billboards in space
Newsgroups: sci.space

(ie, not pigs in space)

All things in moderation... a few billboards ARE good, no matter what
you may think asthetically, the nuscance of blocking astronomy is
nonsense, put them in geosynch orbit over cities (is that possible?
i'm a little fuzzy on how high an inclinatio you can set a gyosynch),
those people make their sky pea-soup so there arent any stars to see from
there anyway...

ups:
1. revenue for space-contractors
2. increased reasons for high effiecency space launching systems
3. possible mutiple roles for billboards (how about having them
   be double sided, with solar panels on the other side, if the thing
   is several miles long thats a good deal of material area the could be
   used

downs:
1. astheticaly disgusting to a certain percent of the country (how
   many we dont you know...)
2. cant be "walked around", you have to go quite a distance (either up
   or around the planet)

anyway... if there's anything i've missed?




--

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 20:27:22 GMT
From: Robert Casey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Billboards in space
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Theodore F. Vaida ][) writes:
>(ie, not pigs in space)
>
>All things in moderation... a few billboards ARE good, no matter what
>you may think asthetically, the nuscance of blocking astronomy is
>nonsense, put them in geosynch orbit over cities (is that possible?

Geosync orbit is out about 23000 miles.  And only over the equator.
Geosync means that the object orbits once every 24 hours, and Kepler
and Newton says that's at 23000 miles.  You can't hang a few hundred miles
over a selected city.  Astronomy would suffer, ask one what the full moon
does to an otherwise clear dark sky.  Astronomers schedule observations
of faint objects, Moonlight makes that work harder or sometimes not
possible.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 14:41:10 GMT
From: Gary Coffman <ke4zv!gary>
Subject: Math?? (Was US govt & Technolgy Investment
Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space,sci.research,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,misc.education

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Wilson) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>
>|It is, however, now somewhat of an experimental science with the exploration
>|of fractals, strange attractors, and artificial life. Whether important
>|insights will be gained from these experiments is unknown, but it does
>|tend to change the shape of what has mostly been viewed as an abstract
>|deductive field.
>
>How do you do experiments in mathematics?

Nowadays, usually with a computer. No theory predicted the numeric
discoveries listed above. No one can yet write an algorithm that will
predict the precise behavior of any of these at any precise level of
their evolution. So it remains for experimenters to gather data on their
behavior.

Gary
--
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     |

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 20:23:12 GMT
From: Herman Rubin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Math?? (Was US govt & Technolgy Investment
Newsgroups: sci.space,talk.politics.space,sci.research,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,misc.education,sci.math

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mark Wilson) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Coffman) writes:
>
>|In article <1sogo5$[e-mail]> [e-mail]. (Gregory McColm) writes:
>|>As for mathematics being a science, well, it is more of a meta-science
>|>(in a Kantian view), and some claim that it is an art.  The David
>|>Report called it The Science of Order, but that's probably pomposity.

>|It is, however, now somewhat of an experimental science with the exploration
>|of fractals, strange attractors, and artificial life. Whether important
>|insights will be gained from these experiments is unknown, but it does
>|tend to change the shape of what has mostly been viewed as an abstract
>|deductive field.

>How do you do experiments in mathematics?

It is experimental in other ways, although many might not recognize it
as such.  One does not always produce proofs in the manner in which the
proofs appear in the published version; one tries out various approaches,
and it is even possible to investigate plausible theorems by numerical
computations.  That something is an integer, or a multiple of pi, may
give insight.
--
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: [phone]
[e-mail] (Internet, bitnet)
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 16:36:10 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Shuttle and Pennicillin
Newsgroups: sci.space

[e-mail] (Pat) writes:


>Pennicillin if i have everything correct,  was a highly valuable
>Myco-toxin,  discovered during WW2.  It proved to have an amazing
>Bacterio-cidal effect without human toxicity.


For some people, but not for me. The one or two times I've
taken derivatives (before my Dad had a heart attack within
fifteen seconds of a pennicillin shot) for infections they
don't seem to have done any good. Now, though, it looks like
there are severe allergies on both sides of my family, so
I can't take it.

>   It's immediate
>administration  showed immediate dramatic results  solving
>problems  that previously were fatal.  Although initially
>enormously expensive to culture,  within 3 years,
>the price had fallen at least two orders of magnitude,
>and within 10 years,  was  not much more expensive then
>aspirin.  Penicillin was also usable for an amazingly wide
>class of infections.

>Centoxin is a drug that is not passing FDA approval.  It promised
>amazing results for Toxic shock, a rapidly fatal disease.
>It consumed enormous amounts of funding  in testing and
>developement,  However it works  less then 1 in 5 times
>of administration  and costs $2,000 per administration
>with no promise of any reduction in manufacturing cost.
>The drug thus costs $10,000 per useful case,  and is
>implicated in a slight increase in mortality for some
>patients.

How much of those problems are due to centoxin itself and
how many are due to our rather flawed testing system?

>I would not dare to compare the shuttle to Pennicillin,
>but to centoxin.

>pat
--
Phil Fraering         |"Number one good faith! You convert,
[e-mail]|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. Mahen missionary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 16:40:04 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing -- Boycott
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

[e-mail] (David Fox) writes:

>In the New York Times on Sunday May 9th in the week in review
>section there was a report of a group called "Space Marketing"
>in Atlanta, Georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide
>reflective Earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large
>and as bright as the Moon and carry some sort of advertising.
>There was an editorial about this in the Times the following
>Tuesday.

>Are others as upset about this as I am?  I feel that a global
>boycott of anyone involved with such a project would be a good
>idea.  Perhaps it could be made illegal in various countries
>around the world?  Do others agree?

1. Since when should the groundhogs and flatlanders have veto
power over things that happen in space?

2. I'm boycotting any corporation that joins the boycott.
Anyone with me?
--
Phil Fraering         |"Number one good faith! You convert,
[e-mail]|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. Mahen missionary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 17:30:22 GMT
From: Dan Herrin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing -- Boycott
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

[Space ad proposed]

This is undoubtedly the sickest thing to come down the marketing pipe
in years, and the best reason for resurrecting the "Star Wars" killer
satellite system.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 16:42:37 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

[e-mail] (OPIRG) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom R Courtney) writes:
>>I got incensed when I read that Carl Sagan called this idea an "abomination."
>>I don't think that word means what he thinks it does. Children starving in the
>>richest country in the world is an abomination; an ad agency is at worst just
>>in poor taste.
>>
>>Tom Courtney

>I don't think that idea means what you think it does. Having everyone
>on Earth subject to some ad agency's "poor taste" *is* an abomination.
>(abomination : n. loathing; odious or degrading habit or act; an
>object of disgust. (Oxford Concise Dictionary)) Maybe *you* don't mind
>having every part of your life saturated with commercials, but many of
>us loathe it. I'd rather not have the beauty of the night sky always marred
>by a giant billboard, and I'll bet the idea is virtually sacrilegious
>to an astronomer like Sagan.

>Reid Cooper

Look, people, it's just a picture. It's not an abomination like the one
everyone and their brother is helping perpetrate in the former Yugoslavia
where the holocaust is being ressurected.

We have a "boycott" there, on weapons trade. As a result the side with
a weapons stockpile is committing genocide on the side without one.

So lay off on the "visual sacrelige" stuff, at least until you've
tried living on a planet like Earth for a while, instead of the
fantasyland you've imagined where the worst thing people have to
think about (and not everyone hates it!) is an orbiting billboard,
visible only shortly before or after twilight...


--
Phil Fraering         |"Number one good faith! You convert,
[e-mail]|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. Mahen missionary

------------------------------

Date: 16 MAY 93 11:22:45 CST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

What a waste of resources when they can't even get the space station going!
 __      __   _
|__||   |__||/ | an
|  ||   |  ||  | apple][e            [e-mail]
|  ||__ |  ||  | (}{)interface...    [e-mail]
===============================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 17:24:16 GMT
From: OPIRG <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank Crary) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (OPIRG) writes:
>>Maybe *you* don't mind having every part of your life saturated with
>>commercials, but many of us loathe it.
>
>It's a moot point: Step out of your door go _anywhere_ (except possibly
>your mailbox). You will be "subject to some ad agency's 'poor taste'"

Not all regions have as much outdoor advertising as a U.S. city. For
example, I was in Gatineau park last week (about 30 min. drive from
Ottawa) and saw *no* advertising. Even in Ottawa itself, I see fewer
ads than I see in the typical New York State city. Many people beyond
your borders will be subject to 'space billboards'; not all of them
have be saturated with advertising.

In any case, why make a bad thing worse?


>>...I'd rather not have the beauty of the night sky always marred
>>by a giant billboard, and I'll bet the idea is virtually sacrilegious
>>to an astronomer like Sagan.
>
>While I'm sure Sagan considers it sacrilegious, that wouldn't be
>because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer. Modern,
>ground-based, visible light astronomy (what these proposed
>orbiting billboards would upset) is already a dying field
[etc., deleted]

I'm well aware of how astronomy has changed. My point is that these
people place a very high value on the beauty of the night sky, to the
point of making it almost sacred. Just as Christians wouldn't want an
ad for beer in their copy of the Bible, Sagan probably wouldn't want an
ad beer in the middle of the sky.

Reid Cooper

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 17:33:56 GMT
From: Dan Herrin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom R Courtney) writes:
>In some sense, I think that the folks who think the idea is wonderful, and the
>I got incensed when I read that Carl Sagan called this idea an "abomination."
>I don't think that word means what he thinks it does. Children starving in the
>richest country in the world is an abomination; an ad agency is at worst just
>in poor taste.

Is it not also an abomination that somebody would spend money on "space
advertising" when those children are starving? Perhaps some redistribution
of wealth would help them ...

Dan

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 93 17:38:27 GMT
From: Richard J Shank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines

I can see it now emblazened across the evening sky --

        THIS SPACE FOR RENT

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 22:16:21 GMT
From: "Allen W. Sherzer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom R Courtney) writes:

>  ...I read that Carl Sagan called this idea an "abomination."

Then I guess it must be a good idea after all!

  Allen

--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Lady Astor:   "Sir, if you were my husband I would poison your coffee!"   |
| W. Churchill: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it."             |
+----------------------31 DAYS TO FIRST FLIGHT OF DCX-----------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 20:43:32 GMT
From: Geoff Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dan Herrin)
writes:

>Is it not also an abomination that somebody would spend money on "space
>advertising" when those children are starving? Perhaps some redistribution
>of wealth would help them ...


This is specious emotionalism.  Commercial enterprises typically don't
spend money on starving children (or other world problems) anyway, at
least not in excess of whatever minimum amount is required for lip-
service and PR purposes.  Precisely where would you place the threshold
beyond which advertising spending is deemed "abominable," and why?



Geoff

--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller                    + + + + + + + +                Mountain View
[e-mail]               + + + + + + + +                 California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 21:30:42 GMT
From: "Phil G. Fraering" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

[e-mail] writes:

>What a waste of resources when they can't even get the space station going!
> __      __   _
>|__||   |__||/ | an
>|  ||   |  ||  | apple][e            [e-mail]
>|  ||__ |  ||  | (}{)interface...    [e-mail]
>===============================================================

Destroying that project wouldn't pay for another water cooler at
Reston. This project would pay for itself at a very small fraction
of what Space Station is taking from the gubbimint every year and
not getting built....
--
Phil Fraering         |"Number one good faith! You convert,
[e-mail]|you not tortured by demons!" - anon. Mahen missionary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 00:14:49 GMT
From: David Nash <[e-mail]>
Subject: Space Marketing would be wonderfull.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,misc.consumers,misc.invest,sci.astro,talk.environment,talk.politics.space,sci.space,rec.backcountry,misc.rural,misc.headlines,k12.chat.teacher

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Frank Crary) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (OPIRG) writes:

>It's a moot point: Step out of your door go _anywhere_ (except possibly
>your mailbox). You will be "subject to some ad agency's 'poor taste'"

Fortunately, that is (thankfully) not true.  I can't speak for
Frank in Colorado, but I lived in Utah for a spell and it was easy to find
places there that no advertiser (ahem...GROUND BASED advertiser) bothers
to deal with, simply becuase there are no people.   E.g., Fish Springs,
a smallish lake+marsh in the middle of an otherwise barren desert.  The
nearest reliable gasoline is ca. 100 miles away.   On a military base.
Via dirt roads.

Great place.  I plan to return.

>>...I'd rather not have the beauty of the night sky always marred
>>by a giant billboard, and I'll bet the idea is virtually sacrilegious
>>to an astronomer like Sagan.
>
>While I'm sure Sagan considers it sacrilegious, that wouldn't be
>because of his doubtfull credibility as an astronomer. Modern,
>ground-based, visible light astronomy (what these proposed
>orbiting billboards would upset) is already a dying field: The

Try telling that to the folks who recently built the Keck telescope.
Or the ones working on adaptive-optics techniques that cancel out
atmospheric disturbances.  Glad to hear they're in a "dying" field.  Don't
forget us amateurs, either.  I'm writing this a couple of hours before I take
off for scenic rural Illinois so that I don't have to peer through a
layer of pressure-broadened sodium D line and other crud.   The place I'm going
to is reasonably dark -- for now.

>opacity and distortions caused by the atmosphere itself have
>driven most of the field to use radio, far infrared or space-based
>telescopes. In any case, a bright point of light passing through
>the field doesn't ruin observations. If that were the case, the
>thousands of existing satellites would have already done so (satelliets
>might not seem so bright to the eyes, but as far as astronomy is concerned,
>they are extremely bright.)

We're talking about an orbiting ad here, not some little point
of light that puts a streak or two on a photograph.  It should have been
clear that anything used for advertisement is going to be a bit larger than
a point source.  Even if this was not clear there's a previous post on this
topic that makes it clear:

----
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Notes Person)
Nntp-Posting-Host: graphics.cs.nyu.edu
Organization: Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 03:30:05 GMT
Lines: 132

In the New York Times on Sunday May 9th in the week in review
section there was a report of a group called "Space Marketing"
in Atlanta, Georgia who is planning to put up a one mile wide
reflective Earth orbiting satelite which will appear as large
                             ^^ ^^^^^
and as bright as the Moon and carry some sort of advertising.
^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^

[deletions]
--------
Last time I checked, the moon was not a (near) point source like your basic,
average man-made satellite.

>                                             Frank Crary
>                                             CU Boulder

--
David Nash                  | University of Illinois (Urbana)
([e-mail])    | This .sig is made of 100% recycled electrons.
([e-mail])   | No binary trees were killed to make it.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 12:51:55 GMT
From: Jonathan McDowell <[e-mail]>
Subject: STS-57 inclination?
Newsgroups: sci.space

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail]:
>>          Primary payload: Spacehab 1 EURECA 1-R   Inclination: 57 degrees
> I have seen elsewhere that inclination is 28 degrees.
> Which is correct?

Hmmm... Atlantis left Eureca in a 28 degree orbit. Retrieving it is
going to be *REALLY* fun if they fly to 57 degrees. Torque that
Canadarm! :-)

 - Jonathan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 May 1993 18:26:45 -0500
From: Keith Stein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sts-57 inclination?
Newsgroups: sci.space

Apryan the inclination is 28.5 degrees.

 * Origin: No. VA Astronomy Club 703-256-4777 (1:109/118)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 May 93 12:37:11 EDT
From: Jonathan Deitch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Visas for astronauts after an abort
Newsgroups: sci.space

Claudio Oliveira Egalon of [e-mail]  wrote to All at 1:4549/7,

 >From: [e-mail]
 >Date: 5 May 1993 21:33:29 GMT Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
 >Newsgroups: sci.space

 >I have a question that has been ringing in my
 >head for a while. What if after a launch, there is
 >one of these nasty aborts and the Shuttle has
 >to land in a foreign country (Spain or Morroco).
 >Do the astronauts need a visa for staying there
 >or NASA has some kind of special arrangement
 >with the governments of these countries???

I'm sure in the interest of internation relations, the governments will
allow the astronauts to stay ... they have to have some kind of policy for
airplanes making emergency landings, etc.

Besides, if they stay on the shuttle, it's officially US territory, just like
a naval ship or embassy.

- Jonathan



--
--
             *** I Survived the Georgia Blizzard of 1993 !! ***

 Internet: [e-mail]      Fidonet: Jonathan Deitch@1:133/411.7
           [e-mail]   Bellnet: 1 - (404) - 261 - 3665
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlanta 1996 !! | Play Pinball !! | Don't Panic ! | "I hate it when I can't
--------------------------------------------------| trust my own technology!"
"Thrills!  Chills!  Magic!  Prizes!" -- Hurricane |    -- Geordi LaForge

Gene Roddenberry, Isaac Asimov, Jim Henson, Dr. Seuss, Mel Blanc ... Sigh ...

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 93 19:41:16 GMT
From: Henry A Worth <[e-mail]>
Subject: Why we like DC-X (was Re: Shuttle 0-Defects & Bizarre? DC-X?)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <1t491o$[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Pat) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Henry Spencer) writes:
> >(However, I do agree with Richard that if you're planning short missions,
> >it may not be worth the trouble of providing anything more than a urine-
> >disposal rig and a few baggies.)
>
> I don't know about C-5's,  but on C-130's  which are regularly used
> for Medium  haul  Personnel transport by the Army,  only have a
> funnel and a garden hose  in the aft.  The female personnel
> hate long trips in the box cars.
>
> pat

   The upper deck of the C-5 is outfitted very much like an airliner.
But, for the commmon grunt, a C-130, C-141, or a chartered, aging, airliner
is the more likely transport, the C-5's being needed for out-sized cargo
not capable of being carried in more readily available transports.

--
Henry Worth
No, I don't speak for Amdahl... I'm not even sure I speak for myself.

------------------------------

End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 579
------------------------------